It wouldn't be unreasonable to limit fatigue to a maximium of something like a week, preventing sold chars from being messed up as well as newbies making their characters unusuable by mistake

which follows my reply to Edward, and further backs up my statement that until those 2 issues are dealt with, nothing is going to be where it could or should be.

o/

off to work...

Celly Smunt

Can you reimburse the sp for jump drive calibration please? I remapped early to train for this then two weeks in, the nerf was announced :(

I have been hit by nerfs in the past and i accept them but this one in particular makes this long skill useless for me. So please, when you make this change, reimburse the sp for jump calibration.

This idea I have been bouncing around, and still am... when I have time, seems to address the large entity projection issue with much less collateral effect than across the board range nerfs:




The operational range nerf here is intended to REPLACE the single jump range nerf in ALL ships.

All existing ship Jump ranges will remain unchanged.

Under this mechanic all ships will be treated EQUALLY.

(There has been input suggesting JFs, Rorqs and Blops be exempted. What do YOU think?)

Naval ships and aircraft in the real world all operate out of home ports or bases. There is plenty of practical realism here as a premise for this mechanic.


The JUMP BASE

1) Each pilot must stipulate a JUMP BASE station on his character sheet.

2) A pilot may only use his jump drive within 32ly of this base, and he may not jump beyond this radius.

3) A pilot may only change his designated JUMP BASE once every SEVEN DAYS.

4) A new pilot's starting JUMP BASE will always be the rookie station in the rookie system where they enter the game, and the player may change it as often as cooldown allows, but there must always be an existing station designated as that pilot's JUMP BASE.

The move cooldown and range limit should not be written in stone. They are just my initial ideas.

The mechanic presented here has a number of advantages. It should prevent taxiing and makes transfer clones to move ship assets redundant.

I suggest that it will make it easier on FCs, players, and servers alike, over the existing plans, while sharply interdicting long range projection of power.

The negative effects on small player entities will not be nearly as bad as with the current plan

I also suggest that the troublesome, bumpy and game risky mechanic of allowing caps to use stargates be deferred till a later time, until we see how the new system works. I feel this particular change should get its own release so its effects can be more carefully measured.If left in there would be an issue involving jump capable ships that have gate moved out of range. I suggest in this case no jumping till back within range of the pilot's base.



I realize your current plans are well advanced, but I also see collateral economic, added grind and player-fun issues which may later overshadow any balancing results you may achieve here, so keep ideas like mine for future reference in case things need to be rethought.

Really? Last dev reply i saw and searched for said the topic was going to be revised not a no, but also not a yes. Just a nebulous ask later statement.
If it is going to be a no from them, then what is the reasoning. Or if its a yes, what is the plan. I see no reason delaying the questions asked till a later date any further.

Quitters never win, and winners never quit.

Seriously - not going to happen . Why? Because then all industrialists will start a new threadonaut to get the ability back to produce capitals in high sec again. Intertwined system - remember?

P.S. On second note: Chribba will hate you for becoming a suspect when he undocks the veld-naught ;)

No. Im looking to keep the risk to capitals balanced. The current changes make it very dangerous for a solo player to move.
even in fleets its going to be exponentially more dangerous. This being as now whole regions are out of range of any npc system or route. Leaving the only route being THROUGH player controlled space. This will effectively put a HUGE hamper on any new cap pilot getting to a destination region how ever long it takes. I agree with keeping the time reduced to what ccp is aiming for. Not the cutting off of entire regions leaving access to them controlled through player regions... Aka if you want to get to stain. All some one has to do to control stain is lock down the surrounding regions. This will be abused in its current fashion TRUST ME. Why do you think the big blocks are actively making capital caches?


SO. No im not loing for a way to safely move them. Im looking for a WAY to move them period as a solo player to all regions. Inline with ccp trying to make it easier for people to play in null.

So ill ask this question of the CCP dev's, How do you envision the solo capital pilot being able to move around. Say from low sec to stain?? or low sec to ore space.

Could not agree more, Right inline with my question to the Dev's.
Problem gets compounded even worse for the player moving around solo...

we use this a lot we are a HS corp that likes to mine out in null the rorq can jump out their with barges in its maint hanger and then pilots can then be bridged to it in prospects and swap to the barges to mine.

10ly isn't needed but 5 makes options very limited and the fewer options the harder it is to do as you start to get camped out

Rorqual is not only a mining support ship, but also a POS service vessel and a medium-sized hauler.
My vote is to give it 10LY range, but no fatigue bonuses. Drones may stay or go - I dont care.

i agree ... black ops need other buffs.. like HP, combat bonuses etc.. more combat related

I'm not against any changes to mining, as it is indeed too dumb. But what CCP present to us now is not a mining revamp, they have some other unrelated goals in mind. So it's reasonable to keep status quo with Rorqual and mining in general for now. And it means they better keep the current roles, which are fulfilled by the Rorq. This roles include, as I mentioned above, POS service for example.

That would be hisec.
Or wormholes, or lowsec.
Because there is already too little initiative to live in null.
Take a look a this table and tell me, why should one mine gneiss instead of kernite?

I didnt stand up until I was asked for. CCP Grayscale obviously doesnt know what to do about Rorqual, and wanted our advice. I expressed my opinion. Did you? No, Instead you try to shut my mouth.

And if you compare trading drone bonuses for 10LY range (as suggested by others) and trading 90% fatigue bonus for 10LY range (suggested by me), you'll see that you're getting primaried the wrong person.

So I'd like to bring up a slightly different point -- something that, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't been mentioned before: missing lowsec gate connections. This primarily concerns combat capitals; those limited to five lightyears' range.

The goal of the long distance travel changes is to make taking gates be, in general, faster than jumping for capital ships. However, this is predicated on the availability of corridors for capital ships to travel in the first place. While most of lowsec is reasonably interconnected, there exist three exceptions to this rule.

Namely, sections of lowsec in southern Aridia/Khanid, Tash-Murkon, and Derelik are completely isolated from the rest of lowsec and REQUIRE at least one jump to traverse. The inaccessibility of these regions via lowsec-gate-only corridor range from relatively easy to overcome (Aridia's inaccessibility is the fault of a single highsec island system, Sazilid) to punishing (all traffic to lowsec Tash-Murkon must jump in and out a single system, Mai.)

These regions represent a very important strategic staging location for assaulting the regions of Delve, Querious, and Providence with the capital ships needed to wage modern warfare. I'm not trying to suggest that ALL systems in lowsec be interconnected with each other, but having large pockets of strategically crucial lowsec be inaccessible outside of jumping does not feel right to me.

With this in mind, my question becomes does CCP consider large sections of inaccessible lowsec an issue? If so, I'd be happy to suggest some fixes to the problem.

Actually, it's not. From the long distance travel changes devblog:



I feel that the issue I've brought up is in the same spirit as the section I've quoted. Having these natural barriers in place and forcing you to accrue fatigue just to get into an area seems counterproductive.

Valterra Craven's post crystallized an idea for me.....

That logistics is just too easy - and that's why the design intent seems not to match what players then do (sandbox).

The timer and fatigue system does indeed seem to be inelegant and I can understand some players objections. What I don't quite understand is why this ended up being the change needed, when a relatively simple tweak (then with further support changes) might well accomplish the same - and a whole lot more.

Why not tweak jump fuel usage and fuel bay sizes so that Capitals have to refuel every 5(?) LY instead? No timers, no building measures of fatigue - just the need to refuel.

Fuel then has to accompany and or be pre-positioned. Make the Rorqual have a secondary 'refuelling station' role (where the Industrial Core does indeed generate a POS-like shield wherein refuelling takes place). JF and the Rorquals have bigger fuel bays. Other ships, could, have the ability to carry fuel as well.

Large assaults - more fuel.

If it works, then I'd seriously suggest that ALL ships end up using fuel (except capsules). It doesn't have to be the same fuel as jump fuel and could even be an isk-sink. Normal space flight uses a bit of fuel; afterburners and then MWDs yet more propgressively; and warping to gates costs some. All usage dependent on mass.

Real logistics is needed for fuel, ammo and maintenace/replacement. EVE only has a relatively small ammo usage and little maintenance and then some replacement. But fuel is the big driver....

(Author is ex-RL Military Logistics Officer) - also let Rorq's into High Sec with similar properties to JFs - and the on-grid within shields mining boosts; per my earlier post herein.

Honestly, I have no idea how CCP will try to pull Rorquals into the belts. Now, when one can bypass cynojammers with dreads and motherships, that Rorqual would be doomed if noticed by any semi-competent PVPer. Best practice would be something like this:
- find a system where Rorqual sits usually;
- sneak and logoff your capitals there;
- on the other day, get a tackle on Rorqual;
- login and kill.
And drone bonuses will not help with that.
Seriously, I think nerfing cynojammers is a huge mistake, considering capital proliferation.

Guess it was Grayscale.
I understand the reasoning behind allowing capitals to jump through gates, but I suppose the consequences of this were seriously underestimated. Battles at cynojammer POS were always a real, meaningful sub-capital PVP (if we're talking about large scale conflicts). What we'll see in the future - is who can dogpile more capitals to the gate.
And black ops will become much safer for attackers, if they sneak a triage carrier and a dread into the target system and log them off.

No, people actually being willing AND able to defend the POS after the timer's up is what's helped supercaps proliferate. It doesn't take that long to incap or kill a POS with sufficient amounts of subcaps, caps aren't necessary to actually take down POSes.

I know, and if the freighter pilot has nomads, your rapier can have them off the line almost from the moment they become targetable. That still doesn't make escorting a freighter interesting to me. Keywords in italics. Being able to do it faster simply makes it less of a chore, not more enjoyable. You're still shovelling the snow - all that's changed is how much snow there is.

But again, that's my opinion. As I said before, other people may find it enjoyable as a group activity, in the same way that people find mining with a bunch of drunk bros to be a good time. It's not the activity in and of itself that is enjoyable, it's the people that make it enjoyable. Personally, I like mining, if I'm with the right group. We tell jokes, swap stories, discuss world events, swap bad fukung links, etc. That doesn't make mining not suck. It just makes you not notice the suck because you're engaged with other people.

They're apparently reducing the EHP required to grind down a system, so we'll see some of the outlier systems change hands a bit easier, but we're still left with the problem of being able to reset all progress made by the defender winning a single fight, whereas the attacker must win all of them.

So I do expect there to be some changes, just not as dramatic as what'll happen once the sov system hits. At least I hope that's how it'll play out, because if I ever do go to fanfest, then either I'll owe greyscale a beer (if the jump changes etc cause more political ruckus than the sov system) or he'll owe me a beer (if the sov system creates more political ruckus than the jump changes etc).

He said he wants drones IF you get Rorqual viable in the belt.
Not something I can imagine.

I checked out the new jump rules for the JFGÇÖs. With the limitation to 10 light years some areas of the universe will be nearly unreachable for the JFGÇÖs.

As compensation for the new timer rules you could let the trained jump range of JDC 5 for JFGÇÖs to 11.5 ly (you would have to compensate with the skill points for the trained skill if not) otherwise the service to the border regions could be closed down.

If you really want to get small corporations into the outskirts of the Universe you will need some new NPC systems in these boarder regions as bridge systems.

But you can think about how much the present owners of the big alliance SOVGÇÖs are pissed off with this and will gank any attempt of corporations which trying to establish new grounds in the border regions and which corporation will start over and over again to settle in the border region!

It need only to gank any attempt to avoid any settlements.

It's not the intention to lock the large guys out (because you wonGÇÖt be able to do that) but to get everybody near

So, how you want to populate the outskirts?

I remember that I have learned all the necessary skills for learning! After this GÇ£branchGÇ¥ was removed we got the GÇ£investedGÇ¥ skills back. Could be GÇ£paid outGÇ¥ same like that.

I can't speak for everyone, but i have mining areas a little over 9LY apart, there's also one place about 7LY away, and one that's a little over 3LY away..
This is why I told Greyscale that the ability to jump is more important to me than a little bit of extra drone bonuses are.

A very good point was also made about the belts that we used to use the rorqual in being hidden and therefore using them "in space" there required some defense from at least the rats, but now that those anoms are no longer hidden, it is suicide to use them out there like we used to and because of that the drone bonuses are no longer needed.

o/
Celly Smunt

There was good suggestion at some topic , that CJ should also lock gates for capital travel.
This way their function could be keept intact , and CJ certain systems could provide interesting options.

i predict a 20% falloff in subs after pheobe . vetern players will leave in their droves, any bets

this patch is the start of the end of eve

Space is not 2D. Draw a vector in 3D space in you will find only one constellation that crosses it. They are coming to you so your distance is much less than theirs and it takes you much less time to travel in jump and your subcaps are ready and drooling for cap kills after the first 10 minutes. You are in friendly space, so caps take much less risk when traveling through gates with a ready subcap fleet all over the target constellation. And those attackers (like TGR) who hate the jump drive animation turns their monitor off/minimize the client with his cap and stops complaining about the travel time.



Only if subcaps have the same disadvantages and ship build and fit costs, and have to call for subcap fleets to protect them every time that they have to take a stargate. Change all subcap ships: price tag to 2 bill ISK, align time to 40s, max speed to 80m/s, no prop mods, no micro jumps, no warp bubble immunity, no tracking, etc Then we'll see if you go ahead and tell cap pilots to /just/ "bring a subcap support fleet, scrub."

I see no problems with cynojammers as they are implemented today. They let the defenders afford to wield caps without too much fear of the other side being able to drop on them, except if they take down the jammer. Again, that's an added tactical option.

I'm not so sure about allowing or denying caps from taking gates when there are jammers up. On the one hand the way things have worked so far wrt the jammer has been okay, on the other hand the defender should be able to have the upper hand since they're already in system and can setup whereever they want. On the third hand, if I understand CCP correctly, fights in and of themselves shouldn't be as important in determining sov in the future as it is now, so it might very well be that it doesn't matter all that much anyways. Time'll tell.

The biggest reason I'd want cynojammers, especially if caps can take gates, is to force them to funnel through a chokepoint I control, instead of just cynoing directly in to a system, siege and blow up something, then GTFO. So basically, added strategic depth, and a defensive bonus.

And i repeat myself - its a CYNOjammer - not a jump/warp/gate whatever jammer. Its meant to stop a fleet from entering a strategical system via directly cynoing into it - not more not less.

Back in 2012 or so there was a suggestion for mobile cyno jammers - refresh that idea in the probably still existing thread if you want more mobile options to stop a fleet but dont try to make a perfectly fine module into something completely perverted again.

Well - i am not against creative ways to change how things are. If everyone is so concerned then let the covert ships equip both kinds of modules - a cyno generator OR a cyno jammer - that would create a counter for what people are so annoyed about.

It just starts looking like people work through a list in the style of: lets find something that hasnt been changed enough yet and lets make some random suggestion to change it.

I would start with a different approach first. Remove the automatic email to the SOV owner in case a POS is anchored somewhere. This automatic control system makes it too easy to guard/upkeep the renter space and gives a huge advantage to the big allies.
If they would be forced to fly through their space and check each of them for unwelcome visitors a lot of systems would be dropped. It also would invite small groups to sneak in and install POSses without asking the owner and could lead to some changes in null. Currently this road is totally blocked

If CCP were to make it so we could keep up the same kind of reaction capacity as we do in today's system, but with fewer POSes, then sure.

My only argument against that, is under the current system most groups will have A: A lot (too many most likely) POSes to keep track of B: an automated system for reporting which reduces checking on a large amount to a biweekly/monthly basis, both of which I could agree are not the best gameplay. While we reduce the number of POSes through the jump changes and coalition consolidation, if we completely remove the warning system, it has a major negative impact on the number of POSes an alliance can manage sanely even theough they are easily capable of managing the sov space. Its much easier to check 10-20 systems and their structures, and extremely painful to check all of the moons (assuming more moons are used since less space).

Under the jump changes, possible future sov changes, and a removal of structure notifications the workload becomes intense. So rather than having to spend hours if not a day or two checking to see if a POS is still there, the notification would not be immediate and around a similar time-frame to if you had to manually fly yourself. The intent is to keep the time-frame the same, but the menial workload down. I suspect making the updates from 1-2 days delayed would be sufficient. With how POS timers work this would basically give you anywhere from <12 hours to prepare a defense. Removing notifications from sov structures would not be as harmful since it is more visible to see which ones are RFed and their are multiple timers to prepare for. POS (iirc) only has one timer, and the effect could be very painful and annoying if you missed one of 100+ POSes on your checklist.

Ideally the only affect this would have compared to a complete removal is the improved sanity of the POS teams.

What do you think happens to T2 if you reduce the production capacity?

And miners could do what CCP intended for them to do and warp back to station every time their hold gets full. CCP's intent means absolutely nothing when it comes to how best (as in efficiency) to play the game.

I've ran some number and now I believe you should reconsider the 50% covert portal bonus to something greater like 80-90%.

Due to the power projection nerfs, some deep null systems will become even safer and even less disturbed than what they are now. Covert operations could be the key to counter that, if anything, they should be buffed or left untouched.

I think it would be useful when considering support of this jump fatigue/BO buff initiative for each player's vote to be accompanied by the number of skill points in non-logistics cap, logistics caps, BO, and subcaps, and how much they like BO or caps. I think the correlations on bias would be strong. It is easy to turn a blind eye to non-logistics caps when you have no investment in it, esp. when you have large investment in BLOPS. Subcap players easily outnumber capital ship players.

PS: There is no bias between long distance and local jumps because jumps across 20ly are just the same as multiple local jumps shuttling between a couple systems adding up to 20ly.

The problem is combat across regions, not travel across regions. So how about this proposal: Jump fatigue is turned into Combat fatigue where players are not allowed to take combat actions until the timer expires. Correlating the time to the total distance jumped in a given time period seems quite reasonable. And jump distance remain unchanged for ALL ships. Let's stay focused on the problem of mitigating the worst case scenario of who could take part in a given battle by distance for FC combat planning.

The counters were half wrong and half-"yeah, so what, deal with it!"

My example has been seen many times and there are many other different examples which I will not detail for the sake of hearing the old, "yeah, serves those big meanie caps anyway. stick it to them harder."

My arguments are very valid, but some players would easily dismiss them simply because it does not support their agenda.

Never said it only affected me. Many people will have to take a hard look at this change. No one will like the consequences, CCP included. Difference with cap skills is that no other subcap ship requires years of dedicated training for level 5 skills, and so no other ship type is affected nearly as strongly as the cap.

Just in case anyone asks the stupid questions: No cap player will give away their stuff for free when they leave the game, No cap player will firesale their cap for stupid prices, No cap player will suicide their cap on the gates, and No cap player will do all the other stuff that you are hoping these nerfs will try to make cap pilots do. They will either make the sacrifices of time or strategy to safeguard their assets, or they will lose interest and leave without throwing a single ISK to you who nerfed their ships to the ground.

I have said what needed to be said and if it falls on deaf ears and Eve collapses, then so be it. It will stand as a warning that no player should dedicate years of training in Eve toward anything ever again. If they will play favorites in this way, they will continue do it again and again just as easily and just as carelessly to any other ship or repeatedly more to cap ships until they are nothing more than low sec gate guns or just the billboards next to those gate guns. Let Eve be warned that your training means nothing after we move in this direction. This is not just a typical game balancing tweak. This is a complete overhaul and probably just the beginning of the cap nerfs and game breaking.

How about we get to the age-old pos or other broken stuff that has been majorly broken for over a decade and stop trying to kill entire capital ship classes just to bandage over the supercapital mistakes of the past!

You are delusional

One more day to go. Man I'm so excited! Just think, in one day I'll be able to jump into the Black Ops ship I don't own and can't fly, and bridge a bunch of bombers across the galaxy where they will get cap kills on every gate! That is if I don't do anything stupid to screw that up, like, say, moving into a wormhole. Sh*t, I totally just did that too, moved into a wormhole. Let me calculate my jump range from here, let's see... 0 times 0 is 0, plus 0, then round to the nearest whole number. I guess you'll just have to bring your cap ship into my wormhole, drop a can and name it "Stargate" and then I'll kill you in something exciting, like a Scythe with T1 drones. Or maybe Lord TGR will just kill twice as many caps on gates and write my name on every other killmail in crayon, I think that would be acceptable.

Now that I think about it, the only reason I moved into this wormhole is because I received a strange fortune cookie from Iceland last year that said "Next year you will be living in a wormhole." I wonder if I'm just a pawn in a game that's larger than I can see, maybe I've been tricked into liking the jump range nerf! Maybe red is really green, and dogs can fly, but only when cats aren't looking? I feel so used, so many caps are gonna die just because I made a reasonable argument on the internet.

See, Andy isn't the only one who can make up crazy conspiracy theories...

Well I can't say I am happy about the changes, or that I am not happy. I do see a logistical nightmare. and I don't see many caps that are in a alliance move (500-1000 caps) being ambushed at some gate in the middle of nowhere, no what I see is a TD being used a lot. you will have those 500-1000 caps, and you will have another 1000 BS's, plus un countable smaller ships. all moving as one giant mass. it could make gate camping fun again. or "I think I need to change my shorts" moment. we will see. if it gets the tactics back into warfare and not just a blob drop contests. Massive fleet fights would be fun again. Well there is my 2 cents, they stink, but there mine.

Fly safe.

Before the usual wise men say their usual nonsense, I'm a pilot of capital that has already taken steps to make all the moves that were needed. I say my thoughts about the patch: it's a steal and an insult to all those who in recent years have played with passion in eve online, months of skilling now useless and not compensated. If CCP has decided to transform a complex and fascinating in its complexity in a children's game free to do so as one who has supported so far is free to look for a different child's play. I just remember the gentlemen programmers eve was different because of its different approach to the MMORPG but if they decided to make a clone of other games for children do well, I will stay until the next relase will not put elves and fairies .... ..
An old player

Christ god...
**** happened.
Wellcome to Endlesstravelling Online.
Ok, i jumped a cap trough a gate.
What else is new, positively?

Yup. Once empires stabilize, maybe some change. Want to defent large borders, get more organized forces. Every issue brought up has been a case of make it easy to control half of null where our alliance only uses six systems and moonmines the rest or rents. Gonna be tough not having massive isk fountain from small groups.